Damned Vigilantes

Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#1
I finally located Jump Town from orbit and was doing runs up and down so I could easily locate it when all this "Emergent Gameplay" that I've been hearing about occurs on whatever server i'm on.

On my second up and down, I get on Chat that someone is sharpshooing but they have no ID on them. The gameplay was emerging! I get back down, ID the pilot in chat but am plugged before I can try to actually battle them. I crash to desktop when I respawn and server was gone when I hit [ to rejoin so thats game over as far as that emergent gameplay goes...

But this got me thinking about the vigilante action going on at JT and the UEE's impression of it - Considering the UEE is built on a military background and has a strict hierarchical structure (civilian/citizen etc) I'd say they are not going to be happy about the populace taking on unsanctioned vigilante action even if it is in an area where criminal action is potentially occurring.

My case in point: The vigilante over JT shot me down with no attempt to communicate. I myself was in a 350R which has no cargo so my motives for being in the area were obviously not to fill my hold with WiDow, as I didn't HAVE a hold. At that point the vigilante has murdered an innocent civilian who just happened to be mapping the area. The self-appointed doer of justice created injustice: I was handed a death-sentence for being in an area where people were conducting criminal business that would have at most earned them a decade years in jail, not execution.

Can the UEE tolerate citizens thinking they can be judge, jury and executioner? How do we think the UEE is going to look upon Vigilantes? (Especially when they down innocent ships?)
 
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August

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Aug 27, 2018
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Iterative
#2
Did you not get on Discord and request TEST to the RESC?

Flippant reaction aside, there's no in-game system to deal with that scenario yet and people are doing it for fun and to test their skills. My recommendation is to squad up until the required gameplay mechanics are in-place. Captured 10 minutes ago.

Capture.PNG
 
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Dec 3, 2018
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Garik_Duvall
#3
Pretty sure UEE would treat them like any other criminal. As you said, they love their hierarchy and rules, so those who don't follow them will quickly find themselves not welcome within their ranks. Now if it's outside of UEE controlled space, then I suppose the only [eventual] option will be to put a bounty out on the person who committed the crime.

Of course UEE and Advocacy will be contracting citizens to take jobs that they either don't have the resources to handle or they prefer not to get their hands dirty on. So while they may contract us to capture or kill criminal offenders, those are individuals who've committed serious crimes, not wantonness killing without what amounts to a 'kill order' being issued.

Will be interesting to see how our UEE reputations will be affected by actions outside their jurisdiction. If you attack an UEE citizen anywhere (even lawless zones), you may incur negative rep with UEE (at least I hope that's how it'll work). Should that jackoff, er... individual who shot ya down later decide to attempt to do business in UEE space, he might have some Advocacy Agents who want to see him. 😇
 
Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#5
is someone butthurt because they were murdered in lawless space?

the idea behind joining a large org is that you can fleet up so no one can outgun you, amirite?
The only thing I was butt-hut about was the server crashing before I could get back to Yela from Olisar to slap the fool.

Stanton isn't lawless space, either. UEE since 2903 (twennynine-oh-three) when it was declared a case of "Eminent Domain" and they up and took over the place after learning of its existence. Although the companies that own the systems planets provide security, the system and it's space is still bound by UEE laws and conventions. Vigilante action in Stanton is essentially the same as vigilante action in Sol or Terra.

Travel Warning: Visitors should note that while the standard United Empire of Earth penal code technically applies in the Stanton System, the UEE does not police the region. Private squadrons and hired mercenaries belonging to the inhabiting supercorporations enforce their own laws here.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/spectrum-dispatch/13141-Stanton-System
 
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Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#7
Reputation/Law system is coming soon enough.
And that's the thing - How will the UEE react? Will they give you +10 for effort or -50 for taking the law into your own hands?

And what happens if they do smile upon vigilante actions and you get +50 over five successful vigilantics, then screw up and kill a load of innocents on action number 6? do you get -50 and are sent on your way with essentially no harm done (apart from all the dead innocent people), or do you become an instant criminal and are executed on sight as you yourself had been doing to other people?
 
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maynard

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May 20, 2014
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mgk
#8
Stanton isn't lawless space... the system and it's space is still bound by UEE laws and conventions. Vigilante action in Stanton is essentially the same as vigilante action in Sol or Terra.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/spectrum-dispatch/13141-Stanton-System
from the Galactic Guide:
Visitors should note that while the standard United Empire of Earth penal code technically applies in the Stanton System, the UEE does not police the region. Private squadrons and hired mercenaries belonging to the inhabiting supercorporations enforce their own laws here.
if the UEE and the corps aren't making effective consequences to prevent 'vigilantism,' it's lawless space

Somalia has a govrernment, but sea pirates operate from there with impunity

a technicality isn't going to save your ass in the Stanton system
 
Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#9
from the Galactic Guide:


if the UEE and the corps aren't making effective consequences to prevent 'vigilantism,' it's lawless space

Somalia has a govrernment, but sea pirates operate from there with impunity

a technicality isn't going to save your ass in the Stanton system
Interesting. Somalia isn't under anyone else's jurisdiction though it's an independent government with its own set of laws and issues. Think of Stanton sort of like Guam, The Falkland Islands or Hong Kong - they are bound to the laws and statutes of their dependent territories but are not neccicerily covered by direct law enforcement patrols. Could you go to Guam and pirate it up a bit and then return to the US without any consequences?

Lets move the setting from Stanton to Sol, a place where there is a functioning government. What do you think the UEE's opinion of Vigilantism will be?
 
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maynard

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mgk
#10
...What do you think the UEE's opinion of Vigilantism will be?
if you go after people with criminal status, it's Bounty Hunting and the UEE will be fine with it

if you go after honest citizens it's piracy, and CIG will escalate the UEE's response until people figure out that piracy in lawful space is a bad idea

80% of players are Carebears who will quit if they don't have safe space to do their thing in
 
Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#11
if you go after people with criminal status, it's Bounty Hunting and the UEE will be fine with it

if you go after honest citizens it's piracy, and CIG will escalate the UEE's response until people figure out that piracy in lawful space is a bad idea

80% of players are Carebears who will quit if they don't have safe space to do their thing in
Thanks, I think I see where you are coming from...

So as most of the ships landing at JT are empty and stat-clean and have only committed a crime when taking off with the drugs in the hold, prior to firing on a ship in the area of JT or elsewhere Vigilantics are occurring and the UEE has jurisdiction, would the following be required to make it all nice and legal:

Would a Vig need to scan the cargo and detect contraband on another ship for it and its pilot to get a crime stat, before being able to fire upon them? And if a vigilante fails to scan the cargo or just opens fire on a ship with no cargo capacity like me, they would earn themselves a crime stat for gung-ho vigilantism...? And if this is the case and a scan is required, would the Vig need a license from the UEE to say they have permission to attack any ship carrying contraband? A license may involve passing some kind of cargo scanning training or something, to make sure they are capable and also thusly rewarded for their vigilant defense of law and order, and if an innocent or unscanned (unproven of crime) ship with no crime stat is fired upon that license is revoked, the rewards cease immediately, and the crime-stat enforecd to them instead?

Innocent until proven guilty, you don't shoot a pizza delivery guy just because he's dropping off a Pepperoni and Sides to that stoners house down the road.
 
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Sep 19, 2017
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Vavrik
#12
a technicality isn't going to save your ass in the Stanton system
That caused the in-game me to laugh better than he has for a week. Thanks.

As far as the game play goes though, @NaffNaffBobFace has a good question. If you have so much as a parking ticket, you're as good as dead sometimes - sometimes many times over. Both bounty hunters and pirates right now, there is no difference between them. And they do it like fools too, it's not like they get anything or even took a risk at all if I'm in a Prospector leaving Port Olisar or Lorville. My ship is empty. Why blow up an empty, virtually defenceless ship? It gets old very quickly. Sure, you can correct the problem, but that too is risky business if you're in a Prospector.

80% of players are carebears who will quit if they don't have safe space to do their thing in
I don't think that's quite a fair thing to say. This part. It's not 80%, not even close, it's a very vocal minority. They just happen to be able to dominate ingame chat because they can. You don't need to have more than 5 or 10% to make it seem like there are care bears everywhere. It's not about a safe place either, this is a PVP game so basically if they can't take it they can play a puzzle game if they want. That's how I feel about it anyway.

I like PVP, I used to like it a lot and might like it again sometime... I'm trying, but I think CIG needs to look at what they're doing here closely.

GOOD CONVERSATION!!!
 
Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#13
Thanks, I think I see where you are coming from...

So as most of the ships landing at JT are empty and stat-clean and have only committed a crime when taking off with the drugs in the hold, prior to firing on a ship in the area of JT or elsewhere Vigilantics are occurring and the UEE has jurisdiction, would the following be required to make it all nice and legal:

Would a Vig need to scan the cargo and detect contraband on another ship for it and its pilot to get a crime stat, before being able to fire upon them? And if a vigilante fails to scan the cargo or just opens fire on a ship with no cargo capacity like me, they would earn themselves a crime stat for gung-ho vigilantism...? And if this is the case and a scan is required, would the Vig need a license from the UEE to say they have permission to attack any ship carrying contraband? A license may involve passing some kind of cargo scanning training or something, to make sure they are capable and also thusly rewarded for their vigilant defense of law and order, and if an innocent or unscanned (unproven of crime) ship with no crime stat is fired upon that license is revoked, the rewards cease immediately, and the crime-stat enforecd to them instead?

Innocent until proven guilty, you don't shoot a pizza delivery guy just because he's dropping off a Pepperoni and Sides to that stoners house down the road.
Disclaimer - Quoting my own post to add a thought to it, not for any nefarious reasons:

In addition to the potential for Civilians/Citizens (Non-Advocacy) Vigilantes to earn a scan-and-attack license and be monetarily rewarded by the UEE for their actions, what about potentially planted evidence?

While you're EVAing from your Connie to some black box someone sneaks into your ship with a packet of Widow, leaves it in the back near the Merlin and then sneaks back to their Hornet Ghost - when you get back in your Connie they scan you, you get a crime stat because they find you have contraband and legally kill you without you having a clue whats going on.

Unless the License holder has an automated scan of their own ships hold and the license is revoked if contraband is found within it?
 
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Xist

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Xist
#14
Clearly you were breaking the "don't fly near me" law and needed to be taught a lesson! Death is the ultimate teacher, or something like that.

On second thought, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Where did I put my scotch?
 

Printimus

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Printimus
#15
And that's the thing - How will the UEE react? Will they give you +10 for effort or -50 for taking the law into your own hands?

And what happens if they do smile upon vigilante actions and you get +50 over five successful vigilantics, then screw up and kill a load of innocents on action number 6? do you get -50 and are sent on your way with essentially no harm done (apart from all the dead innocent people), or do you become an instant criminal and are executed on sight as you yourself had been doing to other people?
we dont know yet, thats the beauty of CIG, they give us just enough info to theorycraft something and then when they implement the mechanic into the game, its totally different than what we imagined. Only time will tell.
 
Jan 5, 2016
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NaffNaffBobFace
#16
we dont know yet, thats the beauty of CIG, they give us just enough info to theorycraft something and then when they implement the mechanic into the game, its totally different than what we imagined. Only time will tell.
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.


What we theory-craft here today although seemingly not closely related to the final mechanic might just be seen and contemplated before the final article emerges - although our ideas here may be nothing like the finished product they have the potential to inform and influence what eventually arrives even if it's just "Mmmm, we definitely 100% don't want to do it that way".

Don't hold back! 🙂
 
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Sep 28, 2017
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Deroth1
#17
My guess is that it'll be something similar to what others have stated, a mission or license will be required and there will be rules that must follow in order for their actions to be considered lawful.

For now, that area is a free for all.
 

Esctasy

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Nov 28, 2018
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Esctasy
#18
I've been killed over 20 times at JT. It is the only place where there is any PVP in the game so players go there to test their ship and skills. Some could be real dicks, but well in the end everyone is having fun and getting a taste of PVP. For me I always find myself at a disadvantage because I never strike first, I only attack when being attacked. But this gives the other player a first strike advantage. Now I keep my distance and if they are approaching me I will move away if they continue to follow me then I will make a 180 and open fire. What I hate the most is when it's 2 or more vs 1, you really need something like a warden in those situations, otherwise the smaller ships gets blown up too fast.
 

August

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Iterative
#19
I think there’s a fundamental difference of opinion presented in this thread.

On one hand there are people looking for game systems to protect them from “bad people” - those looking for a single player experience. In my opinion CIg has little reason to make this approach 100% reliable.

This approach ignores the reason to join Test, or to engage with other players, or to play Star Citizen - flying with friends for fun and fury.

Which brings me back to my flippant question - why did you not get in Discord and request TEST RESC?
 

maynard

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mgk
#20
80% of players are Carebears who will quit if they don't have safe space to do their thing in
I don't think that's quite a fair thing to say. This part. It's not 80%, not even close, it's a very vocal minority. They just happen to be able to dominate ingame chat because they can. You don't need to have more than 5 or 10% to make it seem like there are care bears everywhere. It's not about a safe place either, this is a PVP game so basically if they can't take it they can play a puzzle game if they want. That's how I feel about it anyway.
I base my statement on my experience in Eve Online, a space sim / sandbox MMO that is supposedly all about PVP..

You can look at their star map in-game and see how many players are in each system at any one time. Null- and low-security systems are practically empty. Everyone is in high-security space where you get instantly blown up if you fire at other players or anything other than asteroids.

The majority earn their money with combat missions against NPCs whose AI is predictable and beatable. The rest mine or manufacture or trade. All hate to lose their ships and goods. Can you say, "Risk-averse?"

The PVPers join large Corporations (the Eve equivalent of SC's Orgs) that have ship replacement programs funded by taxing their Carebear members. They fight over lucrative systems that allow their Carebear members to get rich and afford the taxes that subsidise the PVPers.

...I'm trying, but I think CIG needs to look at what they're doing here closely.
I totally agree

[RANT]
My biggest concern about Star Citizen is not about the funding to get to launch - it is that I don't see any game mechanics to incentivize PVP. Quite the opposite; the large ratio of NPCs to live players makes it impossible for player Orgs to corner any part of the market. There will be no scarce goods to fight over with the economy as CR envisions it. What is going to drive conflict? How does TEST conquer? How does TESTwin?

What has kept players coming back to Eve Online for fifteen(fifteen!) years are the massive battles and the epic stories around the ever-shifting politics that determine the fates of huge Coalitions and tens of thousands of players.

Star Citizen isn't even close to providing anything comparable. If CIG doesn't deliver game mechanics that take into account humans' territoriality and desire for status, all the beautiful ships and planets won't matter. Space tourism, even in the most stunningly realised virtual universe ever, is not going to sustain our interest. Eve players inevitably burn out, then they take a break before returning to the game. But return they do. Will we return to Star Citizen after we burn out (or venture outside when Spring arrives)? I worry.
[/RANT]
 
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